Why Top Performers Still Feel Empty | Armen Avanessian with Dan Pascone | Ep #59

TL;DR: If you are a revenue leader earning well and still going to bed asking "is this it?", Armen Avanessian has a direct answer: that quiet emptiness is not a performance problem, it is a design problem. In this conversation, Armen shares the framework behind his book Selling Senses, how engaging all five (and a sixth, spiritual) senses builds deeper relationships in sales and in life, and two costly financial mistakes he made early in his career that every high earner should hear about.

• Healthy fear is a reliable signal. If an opportunity does not scare you at least a little, it is probably not the right one. Fear means you are stretching. Comfort means you are staying still.
• Multi-sensory selling outperforms data-only selling. Research cited in the episode suggests multi-sensory experiences can increase memory retention by up to 70 percent, and roughly 95 percent of purchasing decisions happen at the subconscious, emotional level.
• Active listening is the hardest sense to master and the most important to start with. The 80/20 rule applies: let the other person speak 80 percent of the time. Validate what you hear before moving to the next question.
• Not saving early enough is one of the most painful financial regrets. Armen was candid: he assumed the good income would continue and delayed building a savings strategy. Time in the market matters more than timing the market.
• Concentration risk is real. Going all-in on one stock or one opportunity can erase gains that took years to build. A diversified, time-horizon approach protects what you have earned.
• A rich life is defined by value, not balance sheet size. Armen's definition today: how much value am I adding to the people around me? That reframe is worth sitting with, especially for high earners who have optimized for income but not yet for meaning.

• 00:00 — Dan frames the episode: is a quiet sense of emptiness a performance problem or a design problem?
• 01:35 — Armen shares his 25-year career arc from part-time bank teller to Head of Sales at Anthem.
• 03:00 — The personal story behind Selling Senses: imposter syndrome, a family history of dementia, and the decision to leave a testimony.
• 05:26 — How to engage all five senses in a real field sales conversation.
• 09:06 — The data on multi-sensory selling: memory retention, subconscious decisions, and where sales leaders most often miss the mark.
• 12:00 — Active listening as the hardest and highest-leverage sense, plus the 80/20 listening rule.
• 14:08 — How to engage all five senses in a fully virtual environment, illustrated through a cooking class scenario.
• 18:07 — The sixth sense, intentional finances, and two costly early money mistakes Armen made.
• 21:54 — Advice for the revenue leader who is crushing the number but going to bed empty: make yourself intentionally uncomfortable.
• 25:11 — Lightning round: one meal, one book, one habit, bucket list, and one piece of advice for a younger self.

Dan opens this episode with a question that lands hard for a lot of high earners: you are crushing your number, you have the income, the title, and the recognition, and you are still going to bed asking yourself whether this is all there is. His point is direct. That feeling is not a sign that something is wrong with your performance. It is a sign that something is missing in the design of your life. His guest, Armen Avanessian, is a 25-year veteran of the payments and fintech space, currently Head of Sales and Partnerships at Anthem, and the author of Selling Senses. Armen started as a part-time bank teller while still in school and worked his way into field sales, inside sales, sales leadership, and eventually his current role building an entirely new offline payments channel. The conversation centers on the core idea behind the book: that human beings are wired to be sensory, experiential creatures, and the best salespeople understand how to engage as many of those senses as possible. Armen walks through what that looks like in a field sales context and then demonstrates how the same principles apply in a fully virtual setting through a memorable cooking class example. He also addresses a common failure mode in modern sales: data overload. Data matters, but when you lead with data instead of with questions and engagement, you create confusion rather than connection. His formula is simple. Ask great open-ended questions built around who, what, where, why, and how. Listen 80 percent of the time. Active listening, he says, is the hardest sense to master and the most important place to start. The conversation takes a meaningful turn when Dan asks how sensory intelligence connects to financial well-being. Armen introduces the sixth sense from his book: spiritual intuition and spiritual intelligence. He is candid about two painful early money mistakes. He did not save early enough, assuming the good income would keep coming. And he concentrated too much risk in single positions rather than building a diversified, balanced approach. His reframe: resources exist for a reason, and having an intentional strategy for how to steward them is not optional if you want to avoid regret. The episode closes with a lightning round and a simple, direct piece of advice for any revenue leader going to bed feeling empty: make yourself intentionally uncomfortable. If an opportunity carries healthy fear, pursue it. If it does not scare you, it is probably not going to stretch you. And when it gets hard, keep pushing.

Dan Pascone (00:00): Hey, I'm Dan Pascone, CEO of Tailored Wealth and host of the Making Sense of Your Money podcast where every conversation is built around one idea. Your money is a tool to design and live your version of a rich life. If you're a revenue leader or an executive who's crushing your number, earning well, and still going to bed asking yourself, is this it? This episode is gonna hit because that quiet emptiness isn't a performance problem, it's a design problem. And there is a way through it.
Dan Pascone (00:00 cont.): Today I'm joined by Armen Avanessian, a 25-year payments and fintech sales veteran, currently head of sales and partnerships at Anthem and the author of a brand new book, Selling Senses. We're getting into why the best salespeople don't just sell with data, they sell with all five and even the sixth sense, and why healthy fear might be the best litmus test for whether an opportunity is worth chasing.
Armen Avanessian (01:56): The journey started about over 25 plus years ago. Started as a part-time teller while I was in school and slowly but surely working my way up into different positions. Currently working for Anthem, head of sales and partnerships. Looking to launch our offline payments channel sometime here in Q3. And something really I'm excited to talk about is the book launch that happened in early January for Selling Senses. So officially an author. Armen Avanessian (03:22): Many of us as leaders from time to time, if not often, struggle with imposter syndrome. So I kind of really held back on putting the book out there. But then, you know, life hits you, right? We have essentially a family history of dementia. And so my mom several years ago was diagnosed with dementia and today has late stage dementia. Can't speak, doesn't remember us. And so those things start to hit you a little bit harder, right? As a human, you start to understand the frailty of life. And you start to think about, what's the impact that I want to leave behind in this world? For me, it's a little bit different. I'm looking to leave behind a testimony, right? I've had a faithful God who has given me endless, endless opportunities.
Armen Avanessian (05:26): Think about how we were created. We were truly created to be sensory, experiential beings. You have two eyes. It's intentional. You have two ears, two hands, lips. And so when you think about us being created as experiential beings, as you're engaging in the sales and prospecting process, you want to do your best to engage all of those senses. It's creating an environment where you can engage as many of those senses as possible. Your cologne may also emit a sensory effect to that person that you may not even be aware of. That cologne you're wearing may be that cologne that that person's father wears and it instantly creates an emotional connection.
Dan Pascone (07:27): I've had that happen many times, especially with smell by the way. You smell something or you recognize a smell and it brings you back to a point in your life. When I was in high school, I worked at Staples one summer. And anytime I walk into a Staples now, I recognize that same smell and it brings me back to that summer. Armen Avanessian (09:06): Brands engaging three plus senses see significantly higher recall and emotional impact. Multi-sensory experiences can increase memory retention by 70%. And emotions: 95% of purchasing decisions happen in the subconscious, emotional. And that's Professor Zaltman from Harvard. I think where we tend to sometimes miss the mark as leadership is focusing too much on data-driven experience. The facts, the features, the benefits. Not saying those things are not important. But what I'm saying is as you're going through that motion, it's important to also create that sensory experience.
Armen Avanessian (11:17): Data matters, but there's something called data kill, right? Sometimes overloading on the data tends to end up causing maybe more questions or confusion than it does helping. For me, all great questions start with who, what, where, why, and how. And so when you frame it in that context, it's leveraging the right data to support solving the right pain points and not going overboard with the data.
Armen Avanessian (12:17): For me, the most challenging one to start with is active listening. And the reason I use the keyword active is because we tend to as salespeople naturally, and I'm guilty of it, we're already thinking about our next question. So start with the active listening. Give the person your full attention and ask two to three key questions. So it's that 80/20 rule for me. Let them speak 80 percent of the time and you listen, right, at the end of the day.
Armen Avanessian (14:18): Think about Dan just registered for an online cooking class. Chef Pierre sent you your package full of all the French ingredients. So the first thing that you get is the package to your door. As you unbox that content, it's fresh ingredients. So you may have the aromas of fresh tomatoes or fresh vegetables inside of that French box that emit memories for you. And Chef Pierre has a note in there. Dan, looking forward to our online cooking session. So now you join virtually. Hello Dan, thank you for joining my French class today. We are going to kick the pasta. Right, so I've got your emotions going already. And right then and there, just in the virtual environment, I was able to engage all of your five senses.
Armen Avanessian (18:07): There's something in the back of the book that I touch on called the sixth sense, which is spiritual intuition and spiritual intelligence. When we think about finances, it's making sure that you understand that what you have was put into your hands for the greater good of others. Two things. One, not saving early enough. For me, that was probably one of my biggest mistakes. Thinking, oh, I'm young, I'm going to continue to make this good money. Start saving early and have a plan for savings. And then the number two lesson: I learned the importance of diversification. Because what I used to do was go all in on one opportunity, whether it's one stock or whatever. And now I try to have more of a balanced approach.
Armen Avanessian (22:16): Let me tell you what happened to me at Bank of America Merchant Services. Carrying the bag, field sales, payments, making great money. Over six figure income. Top of my sales team, got awards, recognized for it. And then I would go home and I would go to bed empty. I kept asking myself, man, is this going to be it? And so for me, what I've learned to do is make yourself intentionally uncomfortable. Take on opportunities that you're not ready for and stretch yourself beyond what you think you're really capable of. So stretch yourself and if you have that healthy fear, then it's the right opportunity. If there is no healthy fear, it's probably not the right opportunity. You're just probably seeking something that's comfortable.
Armen Avanessian (28:44): Selling Senses. You can find it on all the major retailers. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Google Play. And if you want to connect with me, I do have a website. www.sellingsenses.com. You can check out the content there, also buy the book there, as well as drop me a message to connect.
Dan Pascone (29:12): That's it for the episode. As always, you can find our podcasts along with our newsletter and YouTube channel at Making Sense of Your Money and makingsenseofyourmoney.com. And as always, prioritize your version of a rich life.

• Selling Senses by Armen Avanessian

• Harvard Business School: Gerald Zaltman research on subconscious purchasing decisions .

• Multi-sensory marketing and memory retention research

• IRS Publication 590-B: Distributions from Individual Retirement Arrangements

• Making Sense of Your Money (Content Hub)

• Tailored Wealth

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