How High Performers Truly Scale Without Burnout | Dan Pascone with Michelle Terpstra

Fast-growth revenue targets without guardrails are a recipe for burnout and churn, not sustainable success. In this episode, Dan Pascone and revenue strategist Michelle Terpstra unpack how to build high-performance sales organizations that protect autonomy, mental health, and retention while still hitting ambitious numbers.

You’ll hear why high performers need autonomy and pleasure to thrive, how to avoid “growth at all costs,” what actually keeps top sellers, and why stewarding your money is just as important as earning it.

• “Growth at all costs” is expensive. Constantly moving quotas, glorifying overwork, and ignoring burnout drive out your best people and destroy long-term enterprise value.
• High performers value autonomy above everything. Top sellers and leaders want clear goals, trust, and space to execute overbearing control and micromanagement push them out the door.
• Culture is a revenue strategy. Celebrating sustainable performance, setting sane meeting norms, and designing humane schedules can increase profits and retention at the same time.
• Gen Z isn’t “difficult” they’re drawing hard boundaries. Younger talent won’t tolerate toxic burnout cycles, if you don’t adapt, you’ll struggle to hire and keep the next generation of sellers.
• Making money isn’t the same as managing it. Many high performers learn to generate income long before they understand cash flow, taxes, or personal wealth planning and that gap can undo years of effort.
• Burnout comes from the hustle crash cycle. The old model of sprinting until you collapse, then “resting,” eventually fails. A better engine blends discipline, resilience, pleasure, and autonomy so performance is sustainable.

• 00:00 – Intro & episode setup. Dan introduces episode 47 and guest Michelle Terpstra, founder and “chief revenue rascal” of Revenue Rascals, and previews the conversation on revenue leadership without burnout.
• 01:53 – Michelle’s path into sales and consulting. From selling college spring break trips to Fortune 500 sales roles, consulting, and launching her own revenue strategy firm.
• [06:30 TBD] – Breaking up the old “patriarch” of revenue. Why Michelle rejects golf-course deals, burnout culture, and growth at all costs in favor of sustainable, humane revenue leadership.
• [08:30 TBD] – What sustainable growth actually looks like. Shifting from power-over to power-with, redefining success metrics, and building cultures that don’t glorify burnout.
• [11:25 TBD] – How CEOs have to change first. Why Michelle only reports directly to the CEO, and how canceling recurring meetings can immediately free capacity and focus.
• [13:50 TBD] – Retaining your best sellers. Autonomy, consistent compensation structures, realistic quotas, and why moving the carrot erodes trust and performance.
• [18:50 TBD] – The millennial burnout loop vs. Gen Z brick walls. How different generations approach work boundaries and what that means for your hiring and retention strategy.
• [21:35 TBD] – Rethinking high performance and burnout. The hustle vacation hustle cycle, and why it fails high performers over time.
• [23:36 TBD] – Autonomy and pleasure as performance levers. Designing your life and work around what fills your cup instead of deferring joy until after the next big target.
• [25:13 TBD] – Michelle’s own money story. Being great at making money but late to learning taxes, cash flow, and P&Ls and why you “don’t have a choice” but to learn money stewardship.
• [29:55 TBD] – Daily discipline and routines. How Michelle uses early mornings and consistent gym time as a foundation for high performance.
• [31:58 TBD] – Where to find Michelle & Revenue Rascals. Her high-performance sales workbook, Revenue Rascals podcast, and playbook vault.

In this episode of the Making Sense of Your Money podcast, Dan Pascone sits down with revenue strategist and Revenue Rascals founder, Michelle Terpstra, to talk about building high-performance revenue organizations without burning people out. Michelle shares her journey from selling spring break trips in college to leading sales at Fortune 500 companies, joining a consulting firm, and eventually launching her own practice. A turning point came when she realized the old playbook of golf-course deals, burnout culture, and dismissing sales enablement didn’t fit the future of revenue leadership.

Michelle explains what she means by “breaking up the patriarch” in revenue: rejecting growth-at-all-costs and replacing it with sustainable growth, humane management, and inclusive models of leadership. She argues that top sellers are easy to lose and expensive to replace so leaders must stop moving the carrot, set realistic, stable comp plans, reduce meeting overload, and give high performers what they value most: autonomy. She and Dan dig into how generational shifts, especially with Gen Z, are forcing companies to adapt to new expectations around boundaries and flexibility.

The conversation then turns personal. Michelle describes the classic high-performer loop of hustle, crash, and hustle again that leads to severe burnout, and how she redesigned her own life by building an engine centered on autonomy, pleasure, discipline, and resilience. She openly shares her early blind spots around money being excellent at earning but late to learning taxes, cash flow, and P&Ls and why every high performer must “steward” their money, not just make it. The episode closes with practical advice on routines, protecting your energy, and designing organizations where people can perform at a high level and live well.

DAN PASCONE (00:00): I'm Dan Pascone, CEO of Tailored Wealth and host of the Making Sense of Your Money podcast, real conversations to help high earners make sharper decisions so their money works as hard as they do. This is episode number 47. And today I'm joined by Michelle Terpstra, who is the founder and as she calls it, the chief revenue rascal at her firm, Revenue Rascals. And we talk about revenue leadership without burnout, why high performers need autonomy and pleasure, how to scale without the growth at all cost trap, and why you can't ignore stewarding your money.

DAN: Before we dive in, make sure you're subscribed on your favorite platform, and if you find the show valuable, I'd really appreciate you leaving a quick review. Thanks so much and enjoy.

DAN (01:09): All right, Michelle, thanks for joining Making Sense of Your Money. Excited to have you today.

MICHELLE TERPSTRA (01:12): I'm excited to be here, Dan.

DAN (01:14): Yeah, yeah, this is gonna be a fun conversation. We have a lot in common, a lot to discuss, so I'm excited to unpack everything revenue leadership, you know, sales and revenue generation. I want to hear a little bit about your podcast. We connected on LinkedIn, but I followed your podcast a little bit and you've got some really interesting stuff that you do there. And then I know that you most recently have come out with some content around high performance and how high performers get to where they are. So if you don't mind, let's just start off by giving a brief background to our audience. Tell us a little bit about what you do today and what's led you through your journey.

MICHELLE (01:53): Yeah, so you know how they say some people are born to sell, Dan?

DAN: Absolutely hear that.

MICHELLE (01:57): So I don't know if it's true, but I will tell you that I have loved everything I have ever sold in my life. So the first thing I ever sold were spring break trips to my friends in college. And that was pretty fun.

DAN (02:08): I remember the guy that sold me my first spring break trip, by the way. We still talk about him.

MICHELLE (02:14): Just saying, I mean, you become a legend in college when you get everybody drunk and on a bus and going to Mexico. So anyway, that's how it all started for me. But in college, I actually studied communication, but not to be a broadcaster. Ironically, though, I now host a podcast and kind of have a media company. But anyway, I studied organizational communication, negotiation, persuasion, influence at one of the most prestigious schools that you can find that does it, which is UC Santa Barbara.

MICHELLE (02:41): And so absolutely loved learning, like taking my natural skills that I was in, like I was really good with communicating with people to learn how to actually truly sell. So when I graduated college, I did what everybody told me to do, which is go get a high paying sales job. And I was like, cool, that's easy. So nailed that interview, got a great high paying sales job and ended up working in sales for three different Fortune 500s and then a small consulting firm. And it was when I was with the consulting firm that I realized, wow, owning a consulting firm is really cool.

MICHELLE: Like, I really like this. You get to design your own process, your own system. You get to work with new people all the time. You're the authority on whatever it is that you're consulting on. And so one day I had a meeting with the head of marketing at the company that I was with at that time, and I suggested that a sales enablement department be created because at the time there was a lot of older reps that were phasing out and new ones like myself were coming in. And it was no longer like, I'm gonna go to the golf course and find a sale. Like, you actually need to know how to sell and you need sales enablement for that.

MICHELLE: And he just kind of looked at me like, I see no value in sales enablement and I don't really understand. You should just go golfing. And I looked at him and I was like, wow, like I don't belong here at all. And I don't wanna be here anymore.

DAN (03:56): Right.

MICHELLE (03:58): So I went home and I told my husband that I'm gonna start a consulting company and a training company and I'm gonna quit my multi six figure safe sales job. And he was like, huh, that's interesting as you can imagine. And he's like, how are you gonna find clients? And I was like, well, me as a sales expert, if I can't find clients, then this is like a major problem. So give me a shot, give me a month. If I can't get a client within a month, I'll go back and get another sales job.

MICHELLE (04:23): Lo and behold, had my first client and I decided actually originally to go down the group coaching program side. So I taught founders how to sell because a lot of founders do not know how to sell. And so I made my first half a million as a consultant doing this online coaching program during COVID and it was a huge success. And over time, I got pulled into larger companies that now are hiring their sales team or they needed their sales team to perform.

MICHELLE: So I evolved into fractional leadership, which started as a fractional head of sales and a fractional CSO and now fractional CRO. And all of those elevation points, that wasn't me saying I'm great at something. It was one of my clients saying, hey, I need you to do X, Y, and Z. This is actually the title and now you can fulfill it because you have all the skills.

MICHELLE: So I organically grew within my consulting business into where I am now. And what I noticed over time is that, wow, we are still doing things the way that we are always doing things. Just like when I felt when I had that conversation with the head of marketing, right? So I created Revenue Rascals and the brand, the podcast, the media, the training behind it to basically disrupt and say, we don't need to do things the way we've always done them. I'm gonna break up the patriarch, and we are gonna change the way that we do things and we can still be happy and successful.

MICHELLE (05:59): That leads me into my passion around high performance. I have a workbook on Amazon, High Performance Sales Habits, but what I've realized is that there is this cycle where high performers, not your average person, high performers, that's who I'm speaking to, they hustle, then they rest, then they hustle.

MICHELLE (06:02): But what that does is eventually it breaks down and it causes severe burnout. And so I have applied my theory to myself, to my own life to prevent burnout and it works so well. So I cracked the code and that's what I'm gonna start sharing a lot about now.

DAN (06:16): All right, I have so many, so many questions. We're gonna start on the sales and revenue side, and then we're gonna come back to the high performance stuff, because now you got me intrigued, and I'm sure that our audience is as well. All right, so what does it mean to break up the patriarch? We're doing, you know, listen, most of our audience knows I'm a former chief revenue officer and I, like you, took a lot of the habits that I learned and a lot of the things that were successful in a corporate role and brought it into my own business.

DAN (06:45): What does that look like for the clients that you coach and that you teach? Tell us a little bit about what are you doing differently? And I mean, I'll start off by saying, as much as I love golf, I love that you sort of disrupted like the old boys club of selling. You know, those of us that spend enough time around specifically tech revenue leaders, and I have a lot of those as clients, know that what you were preaching five, 10 years ago is absolutely the way that most businesses are operating today. Talk a little bit about what have you disrupted and how are you doing things differently than maybe the old books wrote them.

MICHELLE (07:20): Yeah, absolutely. That's a really great question. By disrupting these old norms, I'm in favor of things that you would think everyone's in favor of, but never prioritizes, which is sustainable growth, a humane approach to building teams, and inclusive methods that allow you to scale without as much sacrifice as perhaps everybody is used to. So what that means is if I challenge profits at all costs, money at all costs, growth at all costs the “all costs” part, that doesn't work for me and no one should hire me if that's what they want.

MICHELLE: So what that means is that traditional businesses, they focus on short-term gains, overworking, ignoring employee wellbeing. And what I have seen is that if you want to be this, it doesn't matter how big you wanna be, but if you wanna get there, you have to change your view on that to purpose, sustainability and humanity. And to be clear, this does not mean soft and weeny leadership, okay? Because if anybody knows me and how direct I am, I am absolutely not that person. I am radical candor to a T, but that does not mean that you have to do things the way it's been done before.

MICHELLE: And when you're redefining growth and the patriarch, that's like the patriarchy that's behind that, the business often glorifies burnout. There was a client that I had when we had the stand up every Monday morning, the CEO chose to praise the people who worked all weekend or didn't see their family or they've been on the road for two weeks, they haven't come up for air. So that's actually not something we should be glorifying at all. And so when I look at the disruption that I'm looking to make, it's like I need to prove that companies can succeed without sacrificing this wellbeing.

MICHELLE (08:42): And that's the mission that I'm on. And if you've ever heard of Tower Paddle Boards, it's a paddleboard company, huge. He is an amazing example, and I want that guy on my podcast so bad, the founder, CEO. They work a modified schedule. And when he changed it from a burnout culture into this modified schedule, his profits actually went up.

DAN (09:14): Yeah. Yeah.

MICHELLE (09:30): And everyone thought that he was crazy and he has super high retention. He's not constantly in the hire/fire train cycle and all of this. And it's also another part of it is shifting from power over somebody to power with. And it changes the dynamic from like this rigid hierarchy where a few dominant people like just take over everything to collaborative, equitable power within structure. And you can see an amazing set of new results when you actually do it this way.

MICHELLE: And it's huge. And then also like when it comes like, the irony here is that because I'm a woman, because I'm using these words, a lot of people are like, you must just work with women. And I was like, no, about 80% of my clients are men. And this is a really important piece of the puzzle because, and you know what you'll also notice is men are not gonna be in the comments on my social media saying that's me, because no man does that ever, right?

DAN (10:15): I imagine so.

MICHELLE (10:28): So what they do is they DM me and they say, please come and help me, or it's private. So it's a private thing. So this is what I believe in. And this is what I believe will actually make companies at the end of the day more successful long-term.

DAN (10:31): Love your message here and it really aligns with so our company purpose is to help our clients design and live their version of a rich life. So oftentimes our message and what we're talking to our clients about is how do we use your financial resources to not just maximize the numbers on the statement. And I think you're kind of saying that from a corporate perspective. Same similar concept from a corporate perspective. And we say, okay, it's not just about maximizing the numbers on the statement, it's about using those to get what you want out of life.

DAN (11:13): So my question back to you is, with that as sort of a baseline, what are some of the sacrifices that companies are making prior to working with you, and how do you get them to get away from having to make those sacrifices, whether it be at the founder level, the executive level, or all the way down to the general employee population?

MICHELLE (11:25): Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, the first thing is, is the CEO has to step up. I have a rule that I will not work with an organization unless I directly work, communicate, and report to only the CEO. I will work with no one else. And the reason why is because I know the tone from the top matters more than anything. So you don't want to hire me unless you want that type of interaction with me.

MICHELLE: And so the first thing that needs to be addressed is the CEO needs to be like, do I really want this with the style that Michelle supports, right? Because there's gonna need to be cultural changes, meeting changes. So for example, something super simple that I don't believe in that can be fixed and adapted to my method is the meeting madness that's out there. Like your calendar should not be 40 hours of meetings a week. What the heck, right?

MICHELLE: So I have this thing that I do: any single time I go into a company, I cancel every single recurring meeting on the entire calendar and we only add back what we actually need and we put an agenda and expectations to those meetings. So what that does is it frees up a ton of time for people, for sellers, for marketers, for customer success to actually do the work to grow the business instead of just showcasing how busy they are with 40 hours of meetings on their calendar. So that's one example.

MICHELLE (12:58): The second example is celebrating people who have great outcomes without sacrificing their life to be there. That's the next one. And that means culturally aligned. Also, the other thing that's happening, especially on the sales team side, is a great seller can go get any job they want at any time. So you actually have to work to retain them, period.

MICHELLE: So they're the highest demand. It's the ease. Literally I could go get any sales job tomorrow that I wanted. The high performing sellers are just high demand. So how expensive is it to hire a top performer, train them, and then just lose them because you keep moving the carrot, they don't know what success is. It's like you're changing the job role. You're making quota completely ridiculously unobtainable so they can't reach their bonuses. Like all of these things have to be reevaluated because the cost to the company is actually really high. It's super expensive to find talent, hire talent, train talent.

MICHELLE (13:25): So my argument is, can we just do it right when we hire them so that they stay, so that the company can preserve that energy and that money to grow instead of chasing our hiring tail?

DAN (14:00): All right, so I wanna unpack that a little bit. What can companies do to retain their best sellers? Other than compensation and maybe some of the general perks that we're used to hearing, what can organizations do to retain? Because you're right, retaining the top sellers is mission critical for any organization. So give us some thoughts on what they can do.

MICHELLE (14:05): Mm-hmm. Mission critical. Sure, so the number one value of every single high performing seller is autonomy, period, stop. So if you hire a high performer, please let them be high performers and give them the autonomy that they would like. And that does not mean that they can work from the beach every day. Like don't get me wrong, right? But autonomy means you're not micromanaging, you're giving space, you're trusting the person that you hired to do their job.

MICHELLE: That person can feel that on the other side. And the other thing is, is don't keep moving the carrot for the love of God, okay? Like just decide on how somebody's gonna be compensated, regardless if it's the top comp in the industry or the lowest, keep it steady so people can focus, not worry about making money, because they know if they do the things that they need to do, they can do it, right? So you have to and do not judge them for pushing back or being frustrated.

MICHELLE (15:14): I mean, literally people will fall off so quickly when you keep moving the carrot. And it's a bit of an epidemic, quite frankly, in large corporations. It's like every October, no one knows what January's quota is gonna be. And this drives me insane because we're business owners, Dan. Can you imagine if we waited till January to set our goals for January's fiscal year?

DAN (15:52): Yeah, right.

MICHELLE (15:52): Like that's insane. So you have to change the way you do things so people can be high performers so they can do what they know how to do. But if you keep moving the needle, you are screwing your team.

DAN (15:52): I'm fascinated by this because in the short time that we've chatted, I love your message, but I'm not used to it coming from a revenue person. I'm used to this coming from an HR or a culture person, right? So like, help us understand, like you clearly have had a very successful sales career, but like your message is almost like contradictory to what you're taught growing up in sales and then you and I both grew up in sales, right? So I can relate to that. So tell us a little bit about that.

MICHELLE (16:24): Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. And I guess that's what makes me a little bit different is that I look at the numbers, we are disciplined to the numbers, and that is really important. Like, clearly, no one's gonna keep me around if sales don't go up, if retention doesn't go up, if the market is like—I'm just gonna get myself kicked out of the room, right?

MICHELLE: So the thing is, is I take all the traditional CRO stuff that everybody knows how to like, anyone who's a revenue leader is going to do but I've injected it with what I just shared with you to create a high performance revenue operation within a business. So I could sit here all day long and talk about all the CRO-y things that I do that are traditional, but that would be quite boring for your audience because they've heard it so many times.

MICHELLE (16:53): So instead, I'm choosing to share my alternative view of how you grow and how revenue grows, how you retain talent, how your company can scale. But I wanna be super, super clear. I am a tough person to report to. I expect a lot and you better hit your numbers. If I can protect you from a corporate level of all of the things, you know, and I can give you a consistent quota and we're reaching and these are our goals and this is what your expectations are. Like if I can do that for you, you better perform or you're on a PIP or you're fired very quickly.

MICHELLE: So I think it's important to hear that message alongside everything that I just said.

DAN (17:52): Yeah, no, there's a really nice balancing act there. And what struck me as I'm hearing you talk about sort of combining those two, because the traditional mindset is, especially when you're in revenue leadership, you better hit a number or you're out the door, right?

DAN: That is sort of the traditional mindset. And I think you and I have chatted about this in the past, but I'm a long time member of Pavilion, right? And I hear and see their CEO Sam Jacobs, and I was at a dinner with him a few weeks ago and I heard him quote this again. He quotes the stat all the time of the average tenure of a revenue leader. And I think the most recent was like 19 months or something like that, right? And just before I hopped on this call, a friend of mine, a client of mine, who's a CRO, just pinged me and said I'm gonna be looking for a new job again. Like literally just before we hopped on this podcast.

DAN (18:37): So I think what you're doing is you're doing a nice job of balancing, yeah we need to produce results, but let's make this thing sustainable for the business and frankly the human beings that are involved.

MICHELLE (18:51): Yes, 100% because this is the deal. So I'm an elder millennial, born in 83, okay? So barely made it, right? All right, so the millennials, this generation is fascinating because we were the first generation to say, for example, we don't need to go to an office every day to be successful.

MICHELLE (19:10): Okay, and technology enabled us to do this, right? So we drew this like nice little line in the sand of like, you know, we want flexibility in the workplace. Maybe it's hybrid, maybe it's remote, whatever it can be. But we would still cross over our own personal boundaries and values to take the perfect job that was gonna kill us anyway, because it violated all of that. But we knew we wanted to make the money. We're people pleasers. We wanna be the best. We wanna showcase our success. It's like literally disease of the millennial mind is like being a martyr, right? Like, that's just like our generation.

MICHELLE (19:37): And so that's cool, whatever. But let me tell you right now, the Gen Zers, because I'm responsible for hiring a lot of Gen Zers, especially like in SDR roles and like, you know, beginning roles. I did a podcast episode on this and everyone should seriously go study it if you lead a team or want to lead a team, because they don't draw nice little lines in the sand. They're putting up brick walls.

MICHELLE (20:02): And the thing is, is that if you cannot accommodate the way that a Gen Zer wants to perform and act and work, who's gonna work for you in 10 years when all the millennials go and own farms, because they're so freaking burned out and they don't even wanna work here anymore? Who's gonna work for you? Who's gonna build your business? You're not gonna change an entire generation, Mr. CEO founder. So you better figure out how to scale sustainable, hit your numbers with a new set of rules.

DAN (20:29): Yeah, well said. I think that's a perfect segue into something that you touched on earlier, which is this high performance mindset. And I was intrigued by some of the work that you said you're starting to do and I want you to give us the insights on the Amazon workbook. But tell us a little bit about this. I think you said it's work, rest, work, and how that leads to burnout. I'm intrigued to learn a little bit more about that.

MICHELLE (20:47): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, so I've always been a student at heart. I think if I could redo life, I would have gotten my PhD straight out of my undergrad because I have I've just always been a, let's think of the theory, a very strategic thinker, pattern finder. I have ADHD, it's our superpower, right? So I see things other people don't. I take very complex things and I can digest them and teach them at a very simple, digestible level.

MICHELLE (21:35): And so what I noticed over time is that what I've always been told as a high performer I am a high performer. Like I never, don't let people down. It happens, we hit numbers, I go above and beyond all of the things, which is like cool, but also kind of a disease. So, because you're constantly just trying to be the best ever and that can be really exhausting, right? So traditionally what happens is someone is taught as a high performer. Great, you're a high performer, so this what you do. You hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, do absolutely everything you can, work maximum hours, do all of the things, people please, all these things. And then when you think you're gonna die, go take a vacation, okay?

MICHELLE (21:59): And then unplug, but by the way, because you're a high performer, you don't even know how to unplug, so you're still plugged in. Then you come back and it's not like work went away for two weeks. Now you have twice as much work, twice as much to prove, and you're back into hustling regardless if you're an employee or an entrepreneur or a small business owner, it doesn't matter. So how the heck does that help anybody? And how this ties back to revenue is that if you're an entrepreneur, a founder, a creator, you got to break that cycle or you're never going to hit the potential that you want, one. Two, if you are a founder CEO listening to this and hiring high performers, you better really listen.

MICHELLE (22:47): Because if you want to retain them and have them help grow your business, you have to do this. So what I have realized is you typically with a high performer, we're carrot chasers, right? So after we get the carrot, we reward ourselves with something. It could be a vacation, a bag, a house, I don't know, make it up, right? So, but the problem is, is that we're so burned out by the time we actually get there, there's no joy in the receivership of whatever we have earned.

MICHELLE (23:07): So I decided when I moved to Park City, Utah a couple of years ago, I'm gonna flip this thing on its head and I am no longer going to get myself trapped in this and burn out because I have absolutely burned out multiple times. The last one I can think of, I literally didn't get off the couch for three weeks, which if you know me, I have never sat on a couch for more than seven minutes. So it is like crazy. And I'm like, you know what it is? Is there's two things that every high performer wants, okay?

DAN (23:25): Okay.

MICHELLE (23:36): It's autonomy and pleasure in their life. Autonomy, pleasure in their life. Now pleasure doesn't need to be super expensive cars or all these things. It could be like, you know what makes me really happy and fills my bucket is every morning at 6.30 I get together with my neighborhood and we go on a walk with our dogs. And that starts me like in the right way. But a high performer who is in that toxic loop actually won't even let them do the walk because they're like, no, I gotta answer emails at 6.30 in the morning, okay?

MICHELLE (24:02): So pleasure and autonomy. So that actually is what unlocks your ability to sustain and not to burn out. Then you can put in your engine. Now you'll see I call it an engine because that's what I do. I install revenue engines. That is exactly what I do. So now I'm helping people install their own high performance engine that will drive revenue. It'll drive legacy, money, power, freedom, sustainability, optionality.

MICHELLE: Velocity, like your high performing friend. Like if he's doing what I'm about to share with you, he should be able to find another revenue job like that because he has optionality. Credibility and impact. So those are the results we all want and how you get there is through thought leadership, leverage, discipline and resilience. And so that's the engine that you build around your pleasure and autonomy and it spreads out to then be able to access the results that you want.

DAN (24:37): I love it, I love it. All right, so you touched on something there that I wanted to ask you anyways, but you talked about building the personal engine that allows you to accomplish all these other things. I want you to frame that for our audience in the context of personal finances, money, wealth, however you want to frame it.

DAN (25:06): What's your journey with money been like and how would you advise high performers, revenue leaders, CEOs? We've got a lot of that as our audience. So give them some advice.

MICHELLE (25:13): Mm-hmm. Yeah, so first of all, like I'm your stereotypical woman when it comes to this. And it's like my dad did my taxes all through like high school and college as soon as I started making money. Then he still gave me his gas card. You know, when I graduated college, he still did my taxes in my early 20s. Then I got married and then my husband did my taxes. So all of this time, like up until like around age 30, the only part of money that I had figured out is how to make it and how to make a lot of it.

MICHELLE: But that's actually super dangerous. Like it's actually dangerous to give a bunch of money to somebody who actually doesn't know how to manage it, right? So, you know, that was like I'm just telling you, Dan, it's so true. And I have never met anyone who's good at all of it right away from birth because, you know, our school systems are failing us.

DAN (26:10): That's why my profession exists, Michelle.

MICHELLE (26:22): They're failing us so horribly. Like my children are gonna probably learn absolutely nothing in school that they're gonna ever use in real life. Like how about how to do your taxes? How to manage your money? Like it just blows my mind. So I was victim to all of that, right? And then when I decided to open up my own business, I was like, ooh, cashflow, this is interesting. Right? And all these other things, a P&L, what's happening, right?

MICHELLE: So I had to get to work. I spent years learning how to manage not only my personal money, but also my business money. And then as I started to become a CRO and a CSO, I'm looking at P&Ls, I'm meeting with board members, I'm helping with fundraising. You bet I had to master that skill. And so I guess my message to everyone listening right now is you might be great at managing money, but not making it. Or maybe you're great at making it, not managing it.

MICHELLE (27:15): Or maybe you're great on a personal side, but not a business side. But the thing that I have to say is that you do not have a choice to figure this out. Like if you wanna be truly wealthy and rich, just like you said in the beginning, Dan, of like the whole purpose of your business is you have to pay attention to your money and you need to steward it, you need to nurture it, and you need to understand and play the game. And if you don't do that, you're gonna die and be really mad you didn't.

DAN (27:38): Well, that is a phenomenal segue. I would say drop the mic, but your mic seems like it's attached there, so don't drop it. And we need it for the rest of the episode. All right, perfect segue. We're gonna head into the lightning round, Michelle. So we're gonna let the audience get to know you a little bit better. I'm just gonna have a couple questions. First thought that comes to your mind could be a one word answer, could be a long drawn out thought. You ready?

MICHELLE (27:45): Yeah, I'm not gonna drop the mic. Awesome. Okay, this is exciting, let's see.

DAN (28:03): All right, one meal for the rest of your life. What is it?

MICHELLE (28:06): One meal for the rest of my life. I'm going to go with tacos.

DAN (28:10): You know what, tacos is my answer. My wife recently asked me, like, you asked that question, what's your response? And I would say tacos too. So, agree. And we chatted earlier, we're both of Italian descent, so I think if I had to eat one meal, it would be on the Italian side. But if I were gonna eat it consistently, I'd go with the taco route. So I'm with you on that one. All right.

MICHELLE (28:17): But they have to be authentic street tacos. None of this like Tex-Mex thing. Okay, great. Yep, I mean, the women in my family make the best focaccia bread I've ever had, but I don't think I can sustain my life on that.

DAN (28:39): Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. All right, what's one tool or piece of technology? Could be hardware, could be software, anything in between, other than your phone or your computer that you can't live without?

MICHELLE (28:45): My CRM, isn't that a good revenue leader answer? Yes, so I use Go High Level and that is my personal CRM and I'm pretty sure you use that too just based on your meeting reminders. So I love Go High Level and I think Go High Level is the perfect solution for businesses that are like looking to be 5 million or less or have a very simple sales process.

DAN (28:51): All right, do you mind sharing what CRM you use?

MICHELLE (29:15): If it's complicated and it's five mil or more, then I love HubSpot. So those are my two preferences. And I just look at the numbers and HubSpot is so extraordinarily expensive that it doesn't make sense to keep paying for that at a scalable level unless you're going to exceed five million and you have complicated sales cycle, complicated everything.

DAN (29:37): Sure. Well said. Well said. I can't disagree with that. Do you have a favorite quote or phrase about business or success?

MICHELLE (29:45): It's all in your control.

DAN (29:46): All right, how about a routine, a process, or a personal hack? You're a big productivity person, but you're also a high performance person. Give us something that our audience can replicate that you're doing that's working well.

MICHELLE (29:55): I am. Yeah, I mean, I know some people say I'm not a morning person. I'm not going to get up early, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I mean, maybe there is a very small percentage of people that don't need to get up early and start their day to be successful. But I don't I only know like two people out of the million people I know. So you need to get up and you need to get up early and you need to do what fills your cup for the day so that you can be successful.

MICHELLE: For me, I have a very strict gym schedule every single morning at 5.30 and I have a certain set of things I do every single morning before any child or another adult in my home wakes up. And without that, if I skip it, my entire day is screwed. And so you just have to do it and you have to show up. And this goes back to one of my engine prongs per se.

MICHELLE (31:00): It's discipline. Like I'm not motivated to go to the gym every morning. Like that's the stupidest thing anybody's ever said. No one stays motivated to do that stuff. It's discipline and commitment is actually what gets you there.

DAN (31:06): Absolutely, we have a lot in common and we're at the gym around the same time so I'm with you and it just becomes a habit frankly you don't even think about it. All right, what is one bucket list item you've already accomplished?

MICHELLE (31:06): Yeah, no you don't. Ooh, one to live in the mountains. So yeah, that was, you know, I wanted to escape the big city life and I've done that. And so I love Park City, Utah.

DAN (31:24): Awesome, Alright, last one. If you could give advice to your younger self, what would it be?

MICHELLE (31:28): Just keep going, everything you want's almost there.

DAN (31:31): I was chatting with a friend about that exact concept a couple weeks ago and it's amazing how the difference between being successful and not being successful, often times is just keep doing it, right? Keep going. I love it.

MICHELLE (31:44): Yep. Keep going. It's resilience. Once again, another one of my prongs.

DAN (31:49): All right, so Michelle, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on. If our listeners want to connect with you, collaborate with you, work with you, I want to hear where they can access the workbook, tell us about how everybody can find you.

MICHELLE (31:58): Awesome. So if you are a seller, go onto amazon.com and search for High Performance Sales Habits and you can grab my workbook. And then number two is my podcast is called Revenue Rascals and you can go to revenuerascals.com and you can sign up for free to access every single playbook, worksheet, training I've created inside the vault. It's a one time signup and you can access everything in the portal because I'm a high performer and I don't have time to chase a bunch of documents. So I thought people would appreciate it being in one spot.

DAN (32:30): That's a lot of value. We'll put that in the show notes as well, but that's great stuff, Michelle. Thanks so much for coming on. Really, really enjoyed the discussion. This was a lot of fun. That's it for the episode. You can find the podcast, our newsletter, our YouTube channel, all for free, just like Michelle said with her side, at makingsenseofyourmoney.com. And as always, prioritize your version of a rich life.

MICHELLE (32:34): Awesome. Thank you, Dan.

• MakingSenseOfYourMoney.com – Podcast, newsletter, and videos
• Tailored Wealth – Planning for high-earning executives & founders
• Making Sense of Your Money – Episode archive
• Revenue Rascals – Michelle Terpstra’s podcast & playbook vault
• Search for “High Performance Sales Habits” on Amazon to find Michelle’s workbook.

• Browse more Making Sense of Your Money episodes
• Visit MakingSenseOfYourMoney.com – Free content hub for high earners
• Watch the podcast on YouTube
• Learn more about Tailored Wealth’s planning approach

If you’re a founder, revenue leader, or high-earning executive, your income and career momentum are too valuable to sacrifice to burnout or poor money stewardship.

• Deepen your leadership toolkit: Share this episode with your leadership team and start a conversation about how you can pursue ambitious revenue targets and protect your people.
• Align your money with your life: Visit MakingSenseOfYourMoney.com to tap into free guides, videos, and tools that help you turn strong earnings into long-term financial freedom.