The Hidden Risk Sinking Growing Companies | With Dan Pascone and Michael Higgins | Podcast #37

This episode is for business owners, executives, and especially mid-level managers who are responsible for results but don’t feel confident with “the numbers.” Dan talks with Michael Higgins of Mindful Finance about how his own fast-growing restoration company went broke despite strong revenue and profit margins simply because he didn’t understand cash flow. That experience led him to spend decades training non-financial managers to read financial statements, connect them to daily decisions, and become true partners in profitability. You’ll hear why growth can be dangerous without cash visibility, how to teach finance in a way that actually sticks, and why investing in your people’s financial literacy often shows up directly on the P&L.

• Revenue and profit are not the whole story. Michael’s restoration business doubled revenue and maintained a 15% profit margin, yet it still ran out of cash and collapsed because he didn’t understand cash timing, receivables, and working capital.
• Most non-financial managers care deeply they’re just undertrained. When managers seem disengaged in finance meetings, it’s usually not apathy; it’s fear, confusion, or not wanting to look stupid. With the right training, they’re eager to help.
• The way you teach finance matters as much as what you teach. Three-day bootcamps and generic case studies rarely stick. Spreading ~30 hours of training over 6–7 months, using the company’s actual P&L, balance sheet, and KPIs, gives people time to practice, ask questions, and apply concepts.
• Mid-level managers are often the hidden lever for millions in value. Plant managers, project managers, HR leaders, and supervisors influence pricing, costs, and collections every day. Once they understand how their choices affect margins and cash flow, they start to spot and fix leaks.
• Financial visibility boosts retention and loyalty. When leaders invite managers to the financial table and give them tools to contribute, those managers feel respected, included, and more invested in the company’s long-term success.
• ROI on financial training can be measured directly. Michael shares examples of companies swinging from seven-figure losses to seven-figure profits and project managers finding millions in cash flow by accelerating receivables after targeted training.

• [00:00] – Dan introduces the episode and frames the conversation around why financial literacy is the difference between growth and collapse.
• [01:28] – Michael’s origin story: running a water and fire restoration business that doubled several years in a row and still ran out of cash.
• [02:56] – The painful realization: “I was good at operations and people, but I did not understand finance and it cost me the business I thought I’d have for life.”
• [05:34] – How he went back to his old company, joined the financial training division, and was mentored into becoming a financial trainer.
• [07:22] – Who he serves today: non-financial decision makers in operations, sales, HR, and mid-level leadership across industries.
• [09:08] – Why he refuses to do 2–3 day bootcamps and instead spreads 30 hours of training over 6–7 months.
• [10:46] – Using real company financials and reports so managers see how their daily decisions impact revenue, margin, and cash.
• [11:54] – The retention and loyalty effect when companies invest in managers’ financial skills and invite them into the numbers.
• [13:02] – What and how he teaches: income statement, balance sheet, cash flow, plus practical KPIs for each manager’s area.
• [18:41] – The hardest concepts: balance sheet and cash flow and why he introduces them only after managers are confident with the P&L.
• [20:34] – Measuring ROI: a construction company swings from $1.2M in the red to $1.5M in the black; project managers free up millions in cash.
• [23:20] – Lightning round: coffee, avocado toast, favorite quote from Warren Buffett, and a milestone trip back to Hawaii.
• [27:11] – Advice to his younger self: “Don’t put all your financial eggs in one basket.”

Episode 37 of the Making Sense of Your Money podcast tackles a risk most growing companies don’t see coming: leaders who are strong operators but financially under-equipped. Dan is joined by Michael Higgins of Mindful Finance, who shares how his own restoration business went from $300,000 to over $600,000 in revenue with healthy profit margins, only to suddenly run out of cash and collapse. That experience forced him to confront the difference between being good at running crews and being good at managing the financial engine of a business.

Determined to understand what went wrong, Michael went back to the training company he’d worked for and joined their financial training division. Over the next few decades, he was mentored by top financial trainers and developed his own style for teaching non-financial managers people in operations, sales, HR, and mid-level leadership how to read financial statements and connect them directly to their daily decisions. His focus is on mid-level managers in particular, because they control the levers that drive cost, pricing, staffing, and collections, yet are often left out of meaningful financial conversations.

Michael explains why traditional “finance for non-financial managers” seminars fail: they compress too much content into a few days, rely on generic case studies, and don’t give people time to practice or ask questions. Instead, he spreads about 30 hours of training over six to seven months, uses the company’s own P&L, balance sheet, and cash flow statements, and then drills down into the specific reports managers see like job costing, plant output, or HR metrics. Participants work on real KPIs tied to their area, learn to read red vs. green on financial dashboards, and get one-on-one support when they’re stuck.

Throughout the episode, Dan and Michael highlight how this kind of financial literacy work produces tangible ROI and intangible benefits. Project managers learn how to accelerate receivables and bring in millions in cash. HR leaders stop being seen as “picnic planners” and start contributing to the financial conversation. Companies reverse seven-figure losses, grow profitability, and build a culture where managers feel respected, included, and committed. Michael closes with the lesson he wishes he’d learned earlier: don’t put all your financial eggs in one basket and don’t wait until a crisis to learn how cash really moves through your business.

Dan: I’m Dan Pascone, CEO of Tailored Wealth and host of the Making Sense of Your Money podcast. Real conversations to help high earners make sharper decisions so their money works as hard as they do.

Dan: Today I’m joined by Michael Higgins of Mindful Finance to unpack why so many managers struggle with business finances, how cash flow blindness can sink even a growing company, and the way mid-level leaders create millions in value once they understand the numbers. If you lead teams, this episode shows why financial literacy is the difference between growth and collapse.

Narrator: Brought to you by Tailored Wealth, helping business leaders live their version of a rich life.

Dan: Welcome to another edition of the Making Sense of Your Money podcast, where we cut through the financial noise and help business leaders make smart, confident money decisions. Michael, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate having you on Making Sense of Your Money today.

Michael: Yeah, thanks for having me on. I can’t wait to help people make more sense of their money.

Dan: I love it. We should have all of our guests introduce themselves that way. Very good. I’m going to share that with others.

Dan: You’ve got a unique and interesting background. I’m excited to hear your story and what you did to turn that story into a business. I’ve had a similar experience myself. So tell us a little bit about your background and what you’re doing now to help business leaders make sense of finances inside the corporate umbrella and make better business decisions.

Michael: Sure. I’m an older businessman. I’ve been in the business world, at some level, for about 44–45 years. For about half of that time, I was in training. Then I left training to run a restoration company water, fire, and flood damage with my brother.

Michael: He said, “Hey, do you want to go do something in the real world?” I told him, “I kind of am doing something in the real world already, but sure, you’re my older brother.” So we started this business. The first year we ran it, we had about $300,000 in revenue and about a 15% profit. I had no idea what that meant.

Michael: The next year we doubled in size about $600,000 with the same 15% profit. Still had no idea what that meant. The third year we were doubling again, on our way to $1.2 million or more, and then we ran out of if you could finish that sentence for me, Dan?

Dan: Cash.

Michael: We ran out of cash. And I had no idea that’s what had happened. That was a miserable six months maybe the worst ever. I left there and thought to myself: what happened? I did a diagnosis, talked to my brother a lot, and realized the problem was that I didn’t understand finance and I didn’t understand financials.

Michael: I was good at running the company, the crews, doing the fire and flood work. I was a good boss; people liked working for me. But I did not understand finance. And because I didn’t understand finance, I lost the business I thought I would have to the end of my career.

Michael: I went back to the training company I’d been working for. They had a financial training division. I had been in their business and personal communication training division. I asked, “Hey, could I come back?” They said, “Sure.” I said, “Could I work for the financial training division?” They said, “Well, you’re not very good at that.” And I said, “I know I’ve got proof I’m not good at that.”

Michael: But they knew I was a good trainer, so they let me in. That was back in ’97. Over time, 27–28 years now, I became a financial trainer. What made me do it was this experience that there are a lot of managers out there just like me really good at what they do, high expertise, but they don’t know how to put financial intelligence and decision-making together with that expertise.

Michael: Without ever intending to because they love their companies, their whole life is invested in their company, their kids’ college is invested in that company they can end up costing their companies millions of dollars, depending on the size of the business. That’s how I turned my problem into my avocation. I’m now a financial trainer. And because I was such a phobic about finance when I started, I have a style of teaching that lets me bring people like me up and save them from the problem I had.

Dan: I love it. When you experience a challenge firsthand and then build a business around solving it, it’s powerful especially when you can tell your story and help others avoid the same pain. I’m sure that’s gratifying.

Dan: Beyond that initial training, what did you do to get yourself from novice who didn’t realize he was running out of cash to expert, teaching people how to make educated financial decisions for their business?

Michael: One thing I didn’t do was go back to college for finance or attend a lot of formal seminars. I’d had the experience that those environments didn’t work well for people like me. I’ll talk more about that later.

Michael: Instead, I started to read and study on my own, and I was mentored by three different people along the way very high-level experts in the financial training field. That’s where I got my main training. They’d train me, then I’d get up in front of a room, make a fool of myself, and afterwards they’d ask, “How do you think you did?” I’d say, “I don’t think I did very well.” And they’d say, “You didn’t.”

Michael: That’s how you learn. I got better and better. I was always a good trainer; over time, with their mentorship, I became a good financial trainer. Then I started doing workshops and eventually designing my own workshops based on what I wanted to see happen for people like me people who didn’t yet have the financial experience they needed to be more successful.

Dan: Let’s talk about the people you’re working with now and the challenges you’re helping them overcome. I’ve seen this firsthand. I spent a good portion of my career as a corporate operator and sales leader. My job was to generate revenue.

Dan: Over time, I learned that the best executives don’t just focus on their own silo. They understand what their impact means to the broader success of the business. I imagine that’s what you’re helping to coach people to do.

Dan: Help our audience understand: what types of businesses are you working with, who within those businesses are you engaging, and then we’ll talk about the challenges and lessons.

Michael: The people I engage with are very specific: non-financial decision makers. That means anybody who’s a decision maker but not in finance. Senior managers running marketing, sales, operations, HR. But even more specifically, the group that seems to need the most help and has the greatest impact once they get it are mid-level managers.

Michael: Those are the folks who are often invited to the financial decision-making table but don’t quite understand what’s going on. They don’t want to feel stupid, so they keep their head down, don’t ask questions, and just try to get through the meeting. My goal is to get them to the point where they can say, “Wait, I have a question about that,” and really engage.

Michael: I’ve worked with very large companies General Motors, Verizon 36-billion-dollar steel companies and their plant managers, a $3-billion dairy company and its operations and HR managers. One story, the HR leader at a dairy company came to me and said, “Can you train my HR managers?” I asked why specifically HR.

Michael: He said, “Because they have doctorates and MBAs in their field, and the operations folks call them ‘picnic planners.’” His face got really tight, and he said, “I don’t ever want to hear that again.” So we trained them so they could be seen as financial contributors, not just event planners.

Michael: These days, thanks to Zoom, I’m also able to work with smaller companies. Everything I do now is spread out over time. I used to do two- and three-day trainings, the classic format fly somewhere, do three days at Cornell or wherever. About 15 years ago I decided I would never do that format again.

Michael: If I wanted to teach you, Dan, something about finance, I could do it with you in two days. Do you know why?

Dan: Probably because I have some sort of financial background at least a little bit.

Michael: Exactly. You have neural pathways already built. There are places in your brain where that information can stick. But when I get a mid-level or senior-level non-financial decision maker, they can be as smart as anyone, but they don’t have those neural pathways yet.

Michael: I once had a restoration company owner coincidentally tell me, “My managers just don’t care.” I said, “Tell me about that.” He told me his story, and I said, “You know, I’ve been doing this for 25 years and I’ve never seen that once.” They might be frustrated or feel dumb, but they care.

Michael: They need to be taught in a way that works for them: over time, in small chunks, using real numbers from their own company not generic examples like “How much money did Apple make last year?” That doesn’t matter to them.

Michael: When you teach managers with stuff that matters and give them time to make mistakes and improve, they eat it up. They’re dying to help their company succeed.

Dan: I want to hone in on two benefits I’m hearing. One is obvious: you’re giving them skills to make better financial decisions, which drives better results for the business. The second is retention and growth. You’re investing in people, giving them long-term skills. That creates loyalty I know that from my own career.

Dan: Talk a bit more about that second part.

Michael: I’ll answer from a personal perspective. At some point in every training program, the mid-level and sometimes senior managers realize, “Oh, I’m being included in the real financial conversation.”

Michael: I had a senior manager at a large construction company impeccable at his job but with no finance background who controlled a whole division. When he finally saw how the numbers worked, he said, “My team is interacting with the customer constantly. We could be doing more to collect receivables faster and bring cash in sooner.” He and his team found about $2 million in cash flow improvements.

Michael: He was deeply grateful to his boss for giving him the opportunity to see the numbers and make that kind of impact on the company and his own life his kids’ college, his 401(k), his sense of contribution. That gratitude and inclusion build loyalty.

Michael: People are grateful to be included. They’re investing their lives in the company. When they see how they can move the needle financially, it changes how they feel about their work.

Dan: Let’s hone in on that mid-level manager because I agree with you: that’s where you can get huge leverage. What are the tactics and concepts you’re working with them on? Are you teaching full-scale P&Ls? Are you working more with their specific business unit? What does that experience look like?

Michael: Yes to both. They do need a view of the overall financials, and they also need to see how their specific area plugs in.

Michael: I teach them the three main financial statements, income statement, balance sheet, and cash flow statement but not at an executive MBA level. I don’t want to blow their minds, and they don’t need all of that. They need enough to look at financials regularly and understand what they’re seeing.

Michael: By the time they’re done with our program, they have a format a dashboard they can use forever. I teach them enough jargon to follow the conversation in meetings. Finance is very jargony. If they understand the basics, they can ask questions instead of checking out.

Michael: We always work with their company’s real financials. Sometimes those documents are too high-level to be meaningful to them, so we also pull the sub-reports that flow from them: production reports, job costing, hours per job, etc. For a restoration company, that might be hours to complete a smoke-damage job. For a plant, it might be units produced per hour.

Michael: We take it down to the specifics of their job, but we also teach them the big picture. And we always have them take on real projects tied to their area. They work on KPIs that matter like reducing cost per unit or shortening days sales outstanding and track the impact. When they see, “Wow, I actually changed our cost per unit,” the learning sticks.

Dan: How much of what you teach is nuanced by company, and how much is universal?

Michael: The principles are universal. A restoration company won’t have a lot of inventory they’re a service company. A manufacturer will have a ton of inventory. But how to improve profit, cash flow, and margins is fundamentally the same.

Michael: We often manipulate the raw financials a bit to make them more understandable to the average manager cleaner formats, clearer red and green indicators. The first thing that happens is they start asking better questions. After a while, they start having better answers, too.

Michael: That’s why I can work across such a wide range of companies automotive, manufacturing, service, distribution. We just use their financials, their reports, and their strategic objectives. Who cares about anyone else’s strategy? Only theirs matters to them.

Dan: What do typical group sizes look like? Are you working with business units at a time, or cross-functional groups?

Michael: The bigger the company, the more specific the groups. At Dean Foods, for example, I worked with 70 HR managers. We ran them through in groups of six or seven over a couple of years.

Michael: In smaller companies $10, $15, $30 million we’ll often have cross-functional groups: leaders from every part of the company, mid-level and senior. They’re all looking at the same top-level financials, and then we drill down into their specific reports.

Michael: Over six or seven months, they get about 30 hours of training that’s the same total as a three-and-a-half-day seminar, but spread out. During that time, they meet in groups and they also get one-on-one time with me. They might say, “I don’t understand cash flow,” or “The balance sheet confuses me,” and we work through it.

Dan: What are the biggest challenges your “students” face? Which concepts are hardest to teach or generate the most questions?

Michael: The easiest place to start is the income statement and a simple, metaphorical company model we use that fits everyone. We begin with the income statement and balance sheet and how they connect. Then, a little later once they’re more confident we bring in cash flow.

Michael: The balance sheet and cash flow tend to be harder for people to understand, even though these managers have everything to do with making sure there’s enough green coming in to cover the green going out.

Michael: We spend the first two or three months of the program mostly on the income statement. We give it to them in a format that shows red and green red meaning “examine,” green meaning “kudos” so they can quickly see what’s working and what needs attention. We really break it down.

Michael: Small-company income statements can be pretty frightening. They’re doing their best, but it’s not always presented in a manager-friendly way. Bigger companies spend a lot of money on that. So we help bridge that gap.

Michael: I don’t want to scare anyone listening, but cash flow is a little harder to wrap your head around. That’s why we give it to them later in the program, when they’re already asking for more information and excited about what they’re learning.

Dan: If I’m a CEO or CFO engaging with you, how do you think about ROI? How do you help leadership see the return on investing time and money in this training?

Michael: The nice thing about financial training is that its impact shows up financially. You can literally see it on the P&L and cash flow statements.

Michael: One example: a construction company in Denver called Fiore & Sons. At the end of our first year together, they went from $1.2 million in the red which is why they brought me in to $1.5 million in the black. The owner said, “I couldn’t have done it without you.” Of course, he and his managers did the work, but the training gave them the tools.

Michael: He brought in two key groups right away: the project management team (including the manager who later found $2 million in cash flow) and the senior team. Over time, he added other segments.

Michael: In our programs, everyone chooses a key performance indicator in their area a meaningful metric they want to change. We help them calculate the financial impact of moving that KPI. That’s another way we measure ROI, and it’s something we can directly control in the training design.

Michael: We even give them a calculator that shows what a small change in that KPI is worth. And beyond the deep-dive program, we also do a shorter “Everybody Make a Difference” training a four-hour session for supervisors and superintendents beneath those mid- and senior-level managers. There we give them basics on income statements and KPIs so the whole organization starts speaking a more financially literate language.

Dan: Makes a lot of sense. Michael, this has been great. I appreciate your expertise and I’m fascinated by the work you do. We’re going to switch gears and move into the lightning round. We never tell our guests about this ahead of time, but it lets the audience get to know you a bit better.

Dan: First thought that comes to mind could be a one-word answer or a longer thought. Ready?

Michael: Yep, ready.

Dan: Coffee or tea?

Michael: Coffee, for sure.

Dan: One meal for the rest of your life. What is it?

Michael: Avocado toast with fresh, ripe avocados and bread from the Harvest Bakery, cut into slices.

Dan: I love it. We haven’t gotten that one yet. I’m a big fan when it’s done right.

Dan: What’s one tool or technology hardware or software, other than your computer or phone that you can’t live without?

Michael: Zoom. It enabled me to completely change my business model. I’m in my home office right now. I’ve trained Dean Foods from here, Fiore & Sons from here, and others. It let me spread lessons over seven months without traveling 30 times to each customer. Thank God for Zoom.

Dan: It’s changed the business world, no doubt.

Dan: Favorite quote or phrase about money or success?

Michael: My favorite quote is from Warren Buffett he might have gotten it from someone else. He said, “A rising tide hides a lot of sins. It’s only when the tide goes out that you discover who’s been swimming naked.”

Michael: That matches my experience. When I work with companies and start asking questions nobody’s ever asked, and they start answering questions they’ve never answered, we find out where the real problems are. I love that quote.

Dan: Do you have a favorite book on finance or business?

Michael: I do. It’s out on my deck right now because I still go back to it. It’s called Financial Intelligence by Joe Knight and Karen Berman. It explains balance sheets, income statements, and why they matter. They actually have several different versions one for managers, one for entrepreneurs. It’s a great resource.

Dan: Very cool. I’m going to check that out.

Dan: What’s one bucket list item you’ve already accomplished?

Michael: This is close to home for me. My bucket list includes having all the time I want with my kids and their kids. Our youngest moved to Portland for five years and recently said, “I’m coming back.” She wants to be near home again. So having my kids all together in one place that’s a big one.

Michael: Another bucket list item: I was born and raised in Hawaii. Going back there multiple times not as a resident but as a visitor and experiencing it that way was on my list. We’ve gone back 10 or 12 times. It’s a heavenly place.

Dan: Love that.

Dan: What’s one milestone you’re still working toward?

Michael: For the last 10 years I’ve had a hunger to go to Portugal and walk part of the Camino de Santiago a roughly hundred-mile route between Portugal and Spain. I want to walk at least part of that road and drink sangria on the side of the road as we travel through those incredible countries. Portugal is definitely on my bucket list.

Dan: Very cool. If you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be?

Michael: Don’t put all your financial eggs in one basket.

Michael: We did that, and the basket went “boop.” We’ve had to catch up since then. So don’t do that.

Dan: For my business owner audience and folks with concentrated company stock or equity heed that advice. And come talk to me if you want to figure out how to diversify.

Dan: Michael, finally, if our listeners want to connect with you, collaborate, or follow your work, what’s the best way?

Michael: Our website is probably the easiest place: www.mindfulfinance.biz. You’ll see quotes, client testimonials, and a direct number to call me at my desk.

Dan: I love it. Michael, thank you so much for the time today. Really cool discussion. Thanks for sharing your story and your expertise on business finance and training. It’s been great having you.

Michael: Thank you. This is my first podcast, and I’m glad you were the guy I did it with.

Dan: I’m honored. Thanks for joining me. I’m glad I could be your maiden voyage.

Michael: Thank you.

Dan: That’s it for the episode. As always, you can find our podcast along with our newsletter and YouTube channel all free at makingsenseofyourmoney.com. And as always, prioritize your version of a rich life.

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